Destroy All Movies!!!

Anytime Fantagraphics publishes something outside of its core alternative comics foundation, I take note because it’s often quirky and entertaining as hell reading. That’s definitely the case with Destroy All Movies!!!: The Complete Guide to Punks on Film, co-edited by Zack Carlson & Bryan Connolly. The book strives to be the “most dazzlingly insane film reference book of all time … an informative, hilarious, and impossibly complete guide to every goddamn appearance of a punk (or new waver!) to hit the screen in the 20th Century”. To get a taste of the book, watch a video flipping through it; or take a gander at the introduction as well as a 24-page excerpt of the book. Once you’ve had a chance to read my email interview with Zack & Bryan, consider the current deal that Fantagraphics is offering, where you can save 20% if you buy Destroy All Movies!!!, along with Portable Grindhouse: The Lost Art of the VHS Box.

Tim O’Shea: I love book dedications for the stories potentially behind them. What’s the story behind this “Dedicated to PENELOPE SPHEERIS and JON GRIES for inspiring this project and countless others.”

Zack Carlson: Spheeris’ 1984 film SUBURBIA is by far the best movie I’ve ever seen, and Jon Gries’ performance in JOYSTICKS is a true display of subhuman wildness. Bryan and I watched both of these movies in a short span, and the realization of their sheer power planted the seed for this book that would devour our lives for seven years. We should sue!

O’Shea: How did it come about that Richard Hell wrote the intro to the book?

Zack: He was someone that we were really hoping to even just get an interview out of, though expectations were pretty low considering his prominence in the music and art community. I mean, we couldn’t even get Emilio Estevez to call us for a REPO MAN interview, so what shot did we have for Richard Hell?

Surprisingly, he responded quickly and was very easy to deal with. I’d initially promised him that it’d only take 30 minutes, but we ended up talking for 90. For someone who gets approached so often, he was incredibly open and seemed to have a great time with the interview.

When the time came to ask someone for a foreword, he was easily the first choice. He’d been there for the beginnings of punk, had appeared in several narrative films and documentaries, is well-spoken and funny. We just didn’t know if he’d say yes.

O’Shea: The book was designed by Jacob Covey, did you have any input in the design, or did you just trust Covey to create the best design for you?

Bryan Connolly: The man is a genius. Look at the book. It’s gorgeous. We knew we wanted hot ’80s pink and we knew what images we wanted to go with what, but that layout is all him. I truly love it.

Zack: Jacob and I spent many, many nights on the phone until 3 AM working out details. He’d call and say, “I need 14 more images for the D section!” and I’d get crackin’. He was definitely the entire force behind the book’s visual power. All the funny touches — like the pink skull superimposed over Bernie’s face for the Weekend at Bernie’s II image — that was all him. He is the king.

O’Shea: Can you talk about the editing process for the book, how did you go about deciding what to include and dividing up editorial responsibilities on the project?

Zack: I mean, we basically had to just watch as many movies as humanly possible, as long as they were made between 1975 and 1999. And we were dead set to include as many punk/new wave appearances as we could. Punks can pop up in almost anything besides a period piece or a western, so we had our hands full. Bryan and I each scanned through at least 7000 movies in the last seven years, and our friend Spenser did almost as many himself. Whoever found the punk usually wrote the review. Then we had other pals who signed on to review specific films that were already punk-confirmed, and that they were excited to write about. Then I proofed n’ edited them and that was it, until the general book proofing came around. That was a nightmare. Bryan, contributor Laura Fleischauer and I spent two weeks proofing, and then four people at Fantagraphics did the same, and we’re STILL finding typos!

O’Shea: I was surprised to see a film like Against All Odds included in the book, even more surprised after reading the review: “A typical ’80s noir throwback that benefits by having the dad from Webster in it. Though full of plot twists, it’s predictable, and the only surprise was the woman with intense eye make-up, chopped, messy bleached hair and bullet belt mingling with the wealthy at a posh nightclub. Later she dances to the safe sounds of Kid Creole & The Coconuts. Richard Widmark plays a corrupt angry man. He’s fine. Phil Collins has his title song play over the end credits. He’s paid. I watch this movie on my television. I’m bored. (BC)” Were movies like this included for comedic relief opportunities?

Bryan: It was included simply because a punk was in it. I would have preferred not
to because it is a terrible film. But the goal was to include every movie made before the year 2000 with a punk in it, so we had no choice.

O’Shea: Were there certain films you hoped to include in the book, but could not track down to review? Were there others that proved challenging to find, but that you were able to include ultimately?

Zack: It’s nice to be able to say it, but we honestly tracked down everything we were looking for. And many were tough/expensive to get our hands on. The closest call was the film Banned from director Roberta Findlay. It was never released theatrically or on video, and Findlay allegedly hated it so much that she personally suppressed its release. We even called her at her day job, and she didn’t wanna talk about it. We eventually struck it lucky by reaching Banned’s writer Jim Cirile, who was friendly enough to email us a VHS dub. That movie is a true masterpiece, by the way.

O’Shea: The book is rich with archival photos, were there any favorites that you were pleased to include? And what were your sources for some of these gems?

Zack: I was the guy on image patrol. There was an even divide between VHS covers, old materials from magazines, glossies and internet discoveries. I even took a trip to LA to buy stills from some of the old memorabilia stores there, and came across some pretty great material. Some of the better images (like the Class of 1984 or Surf II stuff) came from the filmmakers themselves.

If anyone reading this is working on a research project, I strongly recommend looking beyond the web for images. Most of what you’ll find there is low resolution and will look lousy when reproduced, and it’s a lot more fun to stumble across stuff that isn’t just laid out for you online.

O’Shea: In terms of punk documentaries, I was struck by Fugazi’s Ian MacKaye’s response in the book’s interview: “A lot of times, the documentaries are put through a major distribution. They’re often tweaked. That American Hardcore movie—I know the guys who made that movie, I’m in the movie—but my analogy for that movie is it’s like watching people fuck through a keyhole. It’s titillating, but it’s not even close to what was actually happening.” In your experience, do you think the same could be said for a majority of documentaries about punk?

Zack: It’s probably largely true of documentaries about anything. Trying to capture the essence of something in 90 minutes is going to be a tough prospect, but that’s especially true when that thing is as large and important as punk.

O’Shea: How many interviews were conducted for the book?

Zack: 65 or so. There were a couple more that we didn’t use because the subject might have been hazy on the details, or just seemed to be answering by the numbers. We contacted about 130 people for interviews and I guess our returns on that were really pretty good, considering we couldn’t pay anyone for helping. A couple people asked for money, but if we had any, we wouldn’t be the kind of people who’d write this book.

O’Shea: Did your definition of punk change drastically in the course of working on this book? If so, how?

Bryan: My definition of punk didn’t change, but it was certainly interesting to learn what the old white men in Hollywood had as their definition: arrow through head, eats broken glass, harasses the elderly, etc.

O’Shea: Can you single out your favorite three to five favorite films among the book?

Bryan: Madame Wang’s, Surf 2, and Get Crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zack: Those are all great. Also: Suburbia (’84), Joysticks, and Ladies & Gentlemen — The Fabulous Stains!

O’Shea: Man, how long did that index take to create?

BRYAN: It was a lot of work on our end and even more work on Fantagraphics’ end. We listed all the names, and they matched up the page numbers.

Zack: That was the rough part. It took five of them over a straight week. Ugh.

O’Shea: You thank a number of film rental places at the start of the book, some of them classified with an RIP (as having closed, I assume). How saddening is it to you to see storefront institutions fall victim to streaming technology and Netflix?

BRYAN: I like those places. I like them a lot. I like to talk to the people that work at them. Going to a RedBox must feel cold and depressing. Their selection is shot. Netflix is convenient, but I like to still rent VHS tapes, which they don’t have. I also get a headache browsing on a computer. I like to go to a tangible section and just pick up boxes I don’t
know anything about, sometimes finding a hidden treasure. This can’t be done the same way on the internet.

Zack: I agree. I’m constantly shocked by people’s willingness to forgo the most valuable resources we have — like bookstores and video stores — because of the lazy convenience of the internet. Why don’t people want to leave their homes? Are they afraid they’ll get struck by lightning or bitten by a dog? It makes me nuts.

O’Shea: Anything you’d like to discuss that I neglected to ask you about?

Zack: The world is full of semi-illiterate jackasses poking at their cell phones and treating each other like shit.

Tim O’Shea: Beige is partially inspired by your initial move to Los Angeles. While the novel is not your story, of course, I’m wondering if when writing a novel like this do you find you learn a little about yourself in the process?

Cecil Castellucci: While no novel is biography, there are always elements of myself and where I’m at or where I’ve been. Sometimes it’s a look back, sometimes it’s a reflection of now, sometimes an imagined path not taken. So, I think that I learn a little bit about myself from every novel I write. For Beige, I was inspired by moving to my particular neighborhood in Los Angeles, Silverlake, and dealing with all the punk in Los Angeles. Everything was so punk rock here and I felt like an outsider looking in, even though I had moved here to put out my first CD on No Life Records. I was working at Epitaph Records and I was this little indie rock girl who sang Twee music. I suppose in this case I learned about the essential roots of punk, which are pretty much the essential roots of being an artist in the world. Ask questions. Pay attention. Think for yourself. When you do that, it’s all good.

O’Shea: One of the main characters in Beige, Katy’s dad (The Rat) is a recovering addict. In writing a young adult novel, how hard is it to touch upon subjects like that (addiction/recovery/impact on the family) without either getting too adult with the topic or talking down to the audience?

Castellucci: I don’t think it’s too hard to talk about anything in Young Adult literature. That’s the great thing about it. There’s room for all kinds of stories, all kinds of conversations. I think you can touch on anything, any subject, as long as you do it with empathy, heart and honesty. In this book, it was important to me to talk about recovery and redemption, rather than the more typical way that drugs and addiction are presented in YA. A lot of times there are very grave consequences, characters end up dead, lives ruined and don’t get me wrong, I’m not condoning drug use or abuse, I am just saying that once you’ve made that mistake, there is life after that. The Rat and Sam Suck all paid dearly for their choices. It ruined their lives and the lives of Katy and Lake’s moms and greatly affected how Katy and Lake are brought up. In the end, they got through it. Well, most of them. In my life, along the way, I have met many people, who are in recovery for drug or alcohol abuse and they were (are) amazing people. Talented, brilliant, kind, generous, human. I feel privileged to have met the ones that I call friends and acquaintances at that time in their life, while in recovery, after they had gone through all of that dark stuff and come out the other side. I got the best of them. With The Rat and Sam Suck and Katy’s Mom, I wanted to write a book that reflected those people who got sober and gave themselves a second chance.

O’Shea: Who was your editor on Beige? After writing a novel, how painful (or painless) is it to endure the editorial process?

Castellucci: I’m so glad you asked! Kara LaReau was my editor. She had edited my two previous novels Boy Proof and The Queen of Cool so we already had a shorthand. I would say that the editorial process with her is a fantastic experience. Not that I don’t get frustrated and beaten down by the process of making a novel. I weep sometimes. I curse my clumsy sentences. I eat bon bons in despair and beat my chest dramatically. But she makes it a lot easier. She’s a big cheerleader and a great sounding board. She also sometimes says one thing about the story, one sentence that just blows my mind and clicks everything together in the story for me. Basically, in our process together, we have long talks about the heart of the book. This book was a bit more layered than my other books, there were more words! So there was a plot chart that was made so we could quickly look at the beats of the narrative broken down chapter by chapter. I love when I give my book to Kara and then we talk. She pulls the best stuff out of me, she has this magical way of just tweaking things just so and then I’m off and running. I love when I get her notes and then I revise. Revising is fun. First drafts are hard.

O’Shea: Who was your favorite character to write in Beige? Now that it’s been a few years since you wrote the book, have you gained a greater affection for other characters in the book?

Castellucci: Oh, picking favorites is always difficult! But in writing the book I loved writing The Rat! He is so fragile and great. He’s trying so hard! He’s really making a go at his second chance. These few years later, I now have a super soft spot for Garth Skater, who wears his helmet all the time because he’s so beautiful, who makes Katy the punk primer cd mix that make up the chapter headings. And of course Katy and Lake, well, their hard blossoming friendship was a treat to write.

O’Shea: When you do a book like Beige, with a certain set of characters–do you ever have the temptation to revisit the characters in another novel?

Castellucci: Beige is the only book where I knew what would happen if I ever got to write a sequel. I knew where I wanted it to go. As a matter of fact, the first draft took place over the summer with the rat and then continued through the whole next school year. Kara LaReau, my editor and I had a long talk and decided to cut out the second half of that draft and just concentrate on the summer. Other than that, except for the Plain Janes, I haven’t really had the temptation to revisit characters. My books are usually pretty stand alone.

O’Shea: Back in 2007, when Beige first came out, you started a blog discussing favorite punk songs in honor of the book’s release. At the blog you run a photo of yourself giving the one-finger salute. The book finds its roots in punk music and the punk attitude, so the picture (in the right sidebar under “This is Cecil”) makes sense to me (and is funny). But do you ever worry that as a contemporary YA writer some potential consumers might be turned off by the photo?

Castellucci: Oh, the one finger salute! I try not worry about stuff like that. I think that as long as you are an excellent adult, honest, true to yourself, full of heart and good deeds, then it’s all good. That is the most important thing to show kids. How to be an excellent person. I try to be an excellent person. It’s a process. I would say that a better way to think of people being turned off by the photo or other things that make consumers (I’m going to venture that would be parents) uncomfortable, whether it be my smiling punk picture or the content of a book, any book, is that those are great opportunities to engage in an open conversation with kids. My feeling is that any entry into dialogue with kids is great. I bet if they sat down and talked with their kids about that picture, Why am I giving the finger? What is punk? then they would likely come to the same conclusion that you do, that in context, the book Beige finds its roots in punk music and the punk attitude. That’s a good dinner table conversation. I’m all about good dinner conversations. So I’m not going to worry about being shown with the finger as a YA author because I know that pretty much every single person has given the finger at some point. And I’ll probably give the finger at some point in the future about something. It happens.

O’Shea: With the Beige is Punk blog, what’s been some of your favorite songs that you’ve been introduced to through the blog?

Castellucci: Well, I finally watched the movie Ladies and Gentlemen, The Fabulous Stains. Which is FANTASTIC! Also, I rediscovered a bunch of songs. I was actually surprised at how many songs I had known already and adored. But pretty much everything Douglas Wolk picked! He’s got such great eclectic, underground, wonderful taste and I hardly knew any of them.

O’Shea: Did anyone punk veterans happen to read the book (albeit not your target audience) and give you feedback on the book?

Castellucci: I wish!

O’Shea: When your career expanded into the world of graphic novels, did you find that coverage helped to expand consumer interest in your YA novels?

Castellucci: I think so! I think everybody finds out about you and your work different ways. I mean, I have some people who read a book of mine because they used to like my band. Or some people read their first graphic novel because they liked my YA novels and vice versa. I’m sure it all goes around. I think some people will like all of what I do with my different ways of telling stories, and some will only like one part. That’s cool. I’m going to keep telling my stories in all kinds of different ways and I’m sure people will come and go.

O’Shea: 2009 is the year of short stories for you. How did this creative decision come about? And while it’s only March, how is 2009 going so far–any pleasant or unpleasant creative surprises?

Castellucci: The fact that I only have short stories coming out in 2009 is a weird fluke! First, I co-edited an anthology about Geeks and the Geek Observed called Geektastic with Holly Black. Then I was asked to be in a Vampire anthology, The Eternal Kiss and that was so fun to write. The story is called Wet Teeth and it’s totally creepy and wretched! Yeah! Then I have a story called The Long and Short of Long Term Memory coming out on the Interstital Arts Foundation anthology Interfictions II. That story is special to me because it’s my first story that is not a young adult story, although it’s perfectly suitable for teens. The most interesting thing is that I feel like these short stories have given me a chance to explore a new literary voice. The stories have informed the new work in progress that I’m working on, which is a novel, which is going to be something very, very different for me. So it’s been enormously wonderful and completely surprising to write these short stories. I feel very lucky that these new pieces in this new voice have been so warmly received and that my efforts to grow as a writer are going to be published. It’s encouraging me to be braver in my work. I love that!

O’Shea: Given that The Long and Short of Long Term Memory (A quite engaging title, I must say) is allowing you to explore “a new literary voice”–I’m curious to hear in what ways has the new voice allowed you to venture into new territory–and how soon into the writing process did you discover you’d tapped into this new voice? Was it in the midst of writing it, or later–when you were revising it?

Castellucci: The new voice question is tricky. I think I had been starting to toy with a new voice, but it wasn’t really fully present yet. Previously I had written a novel (unpublished) (and totally secret cause it was so different from anything else I’d done) called The Cherry Tree, which I am going to finish now that the new voice has sort of settled in my body and I feel stronger about what I’m doing. My editor, Kara read it and remarked at how different it was for me. She encouraged me and even said that she thought that this was the voice I was meant to write in. But I was so nervous, so unconfident and I didn’t know what it was. It seemed that maybe because I had written more contemporary YA that people would think my new ideas would be too weird or something. Then, through a stroke of luck, my new editor at Candlewick, Deborah Noyes was editing an anthology of weird stories called Sideshow. When I found out, I was bummed that I wasn’t the kind of author that would be asked to be in weird anthologies like that. I mentioned to her that I would like to try to write something like that one day. A week later, one of the authors in the anthology had dropped out and Deb asked if I wanted to take a stab at a story. I wrote this story called The Bread Box and she was surprised at what I had done. That gave me a little boost, but I was still feeling too nervous to really try something like a novel or something for adults. The Long and Short of Long Term Memory came from watching my dad, a neurobiologist give a lecture on memory while I was in Montreal recovering from a psychological trauma. I came home that afternoon and wanted to write a story about someone who was trying to remove a specific memory from their mind. That day the new voice really took hold of me. I’m really proud of the story and now, hopefully, it’s more like I’ve just added some kind of je ne sais quoi to my work. I suppose it’s opened me up to even more kinds of story telling, and more possibilities for myself as an artist, which is a bonus. I am working on a novel now that is combining what I hope will be the best of my old voice and elements of the new, so fingers crossed that it blends beautifully.

O’Shea: Are your days of playing in band in your rearview mirror–or do you see yourself doing some musical projects at some point down the road?

Castellucci: Like Cher. There is always room for a musical comeback.

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